Oh yes. The Alex/Ryan episode is so great! Guitarists that study Edward cannot avoid studying Alex…or they avoid it at their own peril.
The legendary “swing time” of Alex and Edward is so often where guitarists throw up their hands and give up…especially on the boogie tunes like “I’m the One”, “Source of Infection”, “Hot For Teacher” etc. Some of this frustration comes from guitar players who sit at home and practice with metronomes or with their own internal time rather than playing with an actual drummer.
And I wasn’t immune to the frustration. It wasn’t until I really started examining the tempo changes in things like “I’m the One” through studying Alex’s isolated drum track and Edward’s isolated guitar track that I realized that the tempo changes within that song were pretty drastic and that they were quantifiable or at least able to be closely estimated.
I saw a recent interview with Joe Satriani in which he totally nails what is going on in “I’m the One” in terms of tempo changes between Ed and Al and he really ends up putting his finger on a big part of that rhythmic relationship between the brothers in general. At the same time I watched and listened to this interview, I started creating a tempo map through the user website for Peterson tuners. By listening to Al’s iso drum track and Ed’s iso guitar, I’ve been able to map out where the tempo starts with Ed by himself and where you can hear Alex slow down that tempo and reign in his brother…EXACTLY as Satriani describes. The bpm notations I found are approximate of course, but I believe they are pretty darned close.
This way, as you work through a proper note-for-note study of “I’m the One” on guitar, you can learn the tempo changed of the album version with exact bpm guideposts throughout the piece. You can use the tempo map I’ve created to practice with through playing it all back with the click from the metronome feature playing through the tempo map, or you can also just learn to play along with Alex’s iso drum track to really get the feel and timing down. It was always difficult to start the song in time when playing along with the record because Ed starts by himself at a very fast speed and then it gets slowed down as Alex enters and the band enters and as the song progresses. This was always jarring to me and it was difficult to comprehend. But now that I can quantify these tempo changes with fairly accurate bpm notations, it all makes more sense to me. The “unknowable swing” became very knowable and “executable” as a result. https://youtu.be/aVT7EAV7iCE?si=rGFtm8wfE-hdmLLj
I love how Dweezil and Ryan address that wild 5-stroke roll thing that happens between Ed and Al during the second solo from “Outta Love Again”…that is a great example of their telepathy which isn’t to do with tempo changes at all-it is just two guys that play together so much that a moment like that pops out every so often and it is sublime! Well spotted!
I’m finishing up my new transcription of “Hot For Teacher” and my engraver and I have come up with a slightly different way of notating some passages to try to reflect some things that happen out of straight time during that recording. I’ll share it here when we are finished which should be soon! That whole drum intro is a labyrinth in itself and it was fun to hear Dweezil and Ryan try to figure out how it was recorded. It is a discussion that me and my drummer friends have talked about for years and it is still not cracked completely!
Anyway, BRAVO! It was really exciting to hear that Ryan is as into the extreme details of the drum parts as I am on the guitar parts…it reminds me of why I love drummers! And also why they drive me insane when they throw a crazy fill in that I’m not sophisticated enough as a musician to comprehend and react to…those “you’re fired!” fills have been the bane of my existence all too often. But that says more about me and my level of proficiency than it does about the drummers who throw ridiculous fills in that throw me and the entire band off! Drummers…love them and try not to hate them! I still wish there was a mute switch for a drum kit!!!
Super fun and very informative episode…loved it!!!
Having been privileged to have seen Shane at some of his first gigs with The Neville Brothers and with our local Lafayette, LA legend Zachary Richard, I was already a fan of Shane. I became even more of a fan when he joined H&O and Darryl’s band. This was a cool episode for me…it was the most constructive one for me personally because of Shane’s specific demos and articulate responses to Dweezil’s pointed questions.
I’ve long struggled with how to integrate nearly any part of Edward’s playing into my own playing or into other non Van Halen contexts. And I know I’m not alone in this. I never thought of infusing things with the “attitude” and “between the cracks” fills and stinging wide bend/vibrato one-noters that Ed certainly used along with those little voice leading triad things a la “Women In Love” that Shane demoed. These are the very things that really can be integrated into almost any situation.
This seems simple, but something clicked with me only through this interview. I think I’ve always been so caught up in thinking (pretty correctly) that Ed’s visual fingerboard lead patterns don’t work in the music that I’ve played…it is pretty grating and atonal because of the lack of regard for reference to harmony when it gets applied in non Van Halen music. And even the pentatonic Ed stuff that I sometimes tried to integrate into blues standards worked only with varying degrees of success. But the stuff that Dweezil asked to hear Shane demonstrate…the “finger grease” stuff that is aptly named throughout the conversation for instance…THAT type of ATTITUDE stuff is really useful because you can put that stuff in until the cows come home and still play in key and follow the chords!
I know many might say “Duh!” and I’m saying it to myself! But it took hearing a great player demonstrate potential answers to the questions that I couldn’t answer about how to integrate Ed influenced things into a broader range of material to really make the light bulb go on! Thanks Dweezil and Shane!
You're welcome! It's interesting to see how much the smallest details influence the greater outcome. Playing with "intention" and "finger tone" influences the sound more than people think.
LOVE the Shane episode. He's been a great influence in terms of his rhythm phrasing and time feel ( his " Sanford & Son " cover is great!! ). Wonderful episode! Totally forgot about " Shrimp Boots " ( another great tune! ).
Thanks Dweezil, that was a really cool episode. “Eddie made the triad rock&roll”, ha, that’s a good quote! Loved the focus on the rhythm-side of things and glad to have now been introduced to Shane Theriot who played some really groovy stuff and made many interesting observations. I’ll be thinking of ‘finger grease’, ‘bundles of harmony’ and ‘good wrong notes’ from now on!
As an aside, the reference to Hocus Pocus by Focus as an early example of triads in a rock and roll context, and Shane’s discussion of Secrets and Little Guitars reminded me of a wonderful youtube video that was posted after Edward’s passing (WHY EDDIE VAN HALEN KICKS ASS!! (youtube.com)). Check it out, it’s a similar kind of deep dive into the rhythm playing on Little Guitars, also referring to Focus and highlighting the chord progression into the verse section.
Dweezil, it's so cool that you and Shane are friends. I do recall the contest and Shane's submission. Thank you so much for including him here! You two need to collaborate on an album!
Really interesting article dropped today. Mike Post on a recent podcast said it was Ed playing all the drums on VHIII. Considering I have heard it's Ed playing all the bass as well... Just interesting...
Thanks for posting this. That is interesting! Ed played drums on the VH III album?! I thought Al got sober after the 5150 tour and stayed that way. It'll be interesting to see if Al mentions all this in his book.
Dweezil, I know you mentioned that we are coming to the "end" of this great series of podcasts in the one you did recently. (I second the "Push Comes To Shove" deep-dive, BTW) But I was wondering if you thought about Ben Eller as a guest? His deep-dive into the Hang Em High riff and what makes it, in his words, impossible is a great watch. And while I know you have had some HUGE guitarists on as guests, I think Ben's love/respect of EVH would make him a great guest. Anyway, love this series, and I don't care HOW LONG it takes for these to come out, each one is golden.
Ben is great…though I have to take exception with his “Hang ‘Em High” tutorial. He makes it way harder than it has to be and he makes something that is actually easy into something confusing.
The pattern that Ed uses is as follows. There is no video evidence of him playing it in any way other than this. My friend Doug Steele also made a video that gave that “absurd stretch” placing the riff on adjacent strings as an option…and while he said that was an OPTION it must be made clear that Eddie never played it that way.
This should make that riff crystal clear. Be sure to use the left hand fingers that I have notated here because these are the fingers that Ed used in all available footage and that goes for the simple picking directions that I have included.
Allen I love all your posts/content, especially the fact that you pore over live vids as well to document the actual way Ed played. I appreciate that the actual riff is "easier" than what Ben was trying to do, what I thought was so cool about the vid was the last part where he realized the riff is swung instead of straight 16th notes. It explains the "galloping" of the low notes that I always heard in the isolated riff parts of the song.
Gotcha…yes, but I will say that nearly everything Eddie played was in his own timing. So one could make a very good case that everything he did was in swing time!
Hi everyone! Most or many of you may already be aware of this, but I thought I’d post it here for those that might have missed it…
My pal Greg Renoff did a historic interview with Dweezil’s pal and quantum level engineer Donn Landee a while back for ‘Tape-Op Magazine’. I can’t stress enough how important this is. To have Donn interviewed to this depth was a dream I thought unattainable, but Greg made it happen finally! His superb research, dedication and tireless interest in Van Halen and the music that Ted and Donn were an integral part of over their careers is served so well in this interview and it is a must read. Part One came out a while back and Part Two just dropped yesterday.
Hi Dweezil, thank you for your incredible dedication to this podcast! It’s been a real pleasure to listen and learn!
I was wondering if you’d be willing to do a “Challenger Deep” dive into the structure and nuances of arguably one VH’s deepest tracks: ‘Push Comes to Shove’.You’ve mentioned that it contains your favorite EVH guitar solo…and I assume it’s one of your overall favorite VH songs (certainly your fave VH album!)
I can’t think of anyone who does a better job than you of articulating not only technical nuances of a piece of music but also emotional nuances, aka the “Fuck Yeah” factor!
It’d be great to hear you pick apart everything from the background (disco-reggae vibe), the intro, overall song structure, the solo, the outro, and any known info on how it was recorded.Perhaps do this as part of another listening party?
A couple of the many things I love about the song are: 1) Dave’s scream during the outro which seems to slowly take up all the oxygen in the room (in the best possible way).2) Mike’s bass fill right before Dave’s scream. It sets up the scream perfectly.And it reminds me of his bass fill in ‘Romeo Delight’ right after Ed’s tapped harmonic intro.
Anyway, keep up the fantastic work and thanks again!
David, Alex, and Michael should play a couple of tunes with Jacob. Do this on this SAMMY 2024 tour. When they come to California.
It would be cool to have Wolf play as well with two guitars and singing backups so Dave doesn't have to stretch. You would have 4 singers. Dave, Jacob, Michael, and Wolf.
The other guitar players that I see doing this could be Dweezil, Nuno, Gilbert. Id have each do a song with the above band.
As soon as I heard the Runnin With the Dweezil at the end of the first episode I had hopes Jacob would also be a guest... I knew it was him. I even mentioned it to Dweezil in private. I was introduced to Jacob's playing leaving an arts festival with his awesome cover of On Fire... A stuffy lady on the bus told me to turn it down. I was so in the moment I looked her in the eye and said, no... My wife pretended to be mad at me until later when she laughed at me like we were kids again. Great episode! I have been waiting literally years for this!
Oh yes. The Alex/Ryan episode is so great! Guitarists that study Edward cannot avoid studying Alex…or they avoid it at their own peril.
The legendary “swing time” of Alex and Edward is so often where guitarists throw up their hands and give up…especially on the boogie tunes like “I’m the One”, “Source of Infection”, “Hot For Teacher” etc. Some of this frustration comes from guitar players who sit at home and practice with metronomes or with their own internal time rather than playing with an actual drummer.
And I wasn’t immune to the frustration. It wasn’t until I really started examining the tempo changes in things like “I’m the One” through studying Alex’s isolated drum track and Edward’s isolated guitar track that I realized that the tempo changes within that song were pretty drastic and that they were quantifiable or at least able to be closely estimated.
I saw a recent interview with Joe Satriani in which he totally nails what is going on in “I’m the One” in terms of tempo changes between Ed and Al and he really ends up putting his finger on a big part of that rhythmic relationship between the brothers in general. At the same time I watched and listened to this interview, I started creating a tempo map through the user website for Peterson tuners. By listening to Al’s iso drum track and Ed’s iso guitar, I’ve been able to map out where the tempo starts with Ed by himself and where you can hear Alex slow down that tempo and reign in his brother…EXACTLY as Satriani describes. The bpm notations I found are approximate of course, but I believe they are pretty darned close.
This way, as you work through a proper note-for-note study of “I’m the One” on guitar, you can learn the tempo changed of the album version with exact bpm guideposts throughout the piece. You can use the tempo map I’ve created to practice with through playing it all back with the click from the metronome feature playing through the tempo map, or you can also just learn to play along with Alex’s iso drum track to really get the feel and timing down. It was always difficult to start the song in time when playing along with the record because Ed starts by himself at a very fast speed and then it gets slowed down as Alex enters and the band enters and as the song progresses. This was always jarring to me and it was difficult to comprehend. But now that I can quantify these tempo changes with fairly accurate bpm notations, it all makes more sense to me. The “unknowable swing” became very knowable and “executable” as a result.
https://youtu.be/aVT7EAV7iCE?si=rGFtm8wfE-hdmLLj
I love how Dweezil and Ryan address that wild 5-stroke roll thing that happens between Ed and Al during the second solo from “Outta Love Again”…that is a great example of their telepathy which isn’t to do with tempo changes at all-it is just two guys that play together so much that a moment like that pops out every so often and it is sublime! Well spotted!
I’m finishing up my new transcription of “Hot For Teacher” and my engraver and I have come up with a slightly different way of notating some passages to try to reflect some things that happen out of straight time during that recording. I’ll share it here when we are finished which should be soon! That whole drum intro is a labyrinth in itself and it was fun to hear Dweezil and Ryan try to figure out how it was recorded. It is a discussion that me and my drummer friends have talked about for years and it is still not cracked completely!
Anyway, BRAVO! It was really exciting to hear that Ryan is as into the extreme details of the drum parts as I am on the guitar parts…it reminds me of why I love drummers! And also why they drive me insane when they throw a crazy fill in that I’m not sophisticated enough as a musician to comprehend and react to…those “you’re fired!” fills have been the bane of my existence all too often. But that says more about me and my level of proficiency than it does about the drummers who throw ridiculous fills in that throw me and the entire band off! Drummers…love them and try not to hate them! I still wish there was a mute switch for a drum kit!!!
Super fun and very informative episode…loved it!!!
Love the Ryan Brown episode! Great to dig into Alex Van Halen's huge contribution to VH's sound.
Amazing
Really enjoyed the Shane episode Dweezil. Another great reminder that tone is primarily in the hands and the heart!
I really enjoyed the episode with Shane some great examples of him playing,
That would be great to see you both do a feature on the Wiggy if you get a chance to do it.
We are planning to do that!
Having been privileged to have seen Shane at some of his first gigs with The Neville Brothers and with our local Lafayette, LA legend Zachary Richard, I was already a fan of Shane. I became even more of a fan when he joined H&O and Darryl’s band. This was a cool episode for me…it was the most constructive one for me personally because of Shane’s specific demos and articulate responses to Dweezil’s pointed questions.
I’ve long struggled with how to integrate nearly any part of Edward’s playing into my own playing or into other non Van Halen contexts. And I know I’m not alone in this. I never thought of infusing things with the “attitude” and “between the cracks” fills and stinging wide bend/vibrato one-noters that Ed certainly used along with those little voice leading triad things a la “Women In Love” that Shane demoed. These are the very things that really can be integrated into almost any situation.
This seems simple, but something clicked with me only through this interview. I think I’ve always been so caught up in thinking (pretty correctly) that Ed’s visual fingerboard lead patterns don’t work in the music that I’ve played…it is pretty grating and atonal because of the lack of regard for reference to harmony when it gets applied in non Van Halen music. And even the pentatonic Ed stuff that I sometimes tried to integrate into blues standards worked only with varying degrees of success. But the stuff that Dweezil asked to hear Shane demonstrate…the “finger grease” stuff that is aptly named throughout the conversation for instance…THAT type of ATTITUDE stuff is really useful because you can put that stuff in until the cows come home and still play in key and follow the chords!
I know many might say “Duh!” and I’m saying it to myself! But it took hearing a great player demonstrate potential answers to the questions that I couldn’t answer about how to integrate Ed influenced things into a broader range of material to really make the light bulb go on! Thanks Dweezil and Shane!
You're welcome! It's interesting to see how much the smallest details influence the greater outcome. Playing with "intention" and "finger tone" influences the sound more than people think.
LOVE the Shane episode. He's been a great influence in terms of his rhythm phrasing and time feel ( his " Sanford & Son " cover is great!! ). Wonderful episode! Totally forgot about " Shrimp Boots " ( another great tune! ).
Thanks Dweezil, that was a really cool episode. “Eddie made the triad rock&roll”, ha, that’s a good quote! Loved the focus on the rhythm-side of things and glad to have now been introduced to Shane Theriot who played some really groovy stuff and made many interesting observations. I’ll be thinking of ‘finger grease’, ‘bundles of harmony’ and ‘good wrong notes’ from now on!
As an aside, the reference to Hocus Pocus by Focus as an early example of triads in a rock and roll context, and Shane’s discussion of Secrets and Little Guitars reminded me of a wonderful youtube video that was posted after Edward’s passing (WHY EDDIE VAN HALEN KICKS ASS!! (youtube.com)). Check it out, it’s a similar kind of deep dive into the rhythm playing on Little Guitars, also referring to Focus and highlighting the chord progression into the verse section.
Thanks Rolf! I'm glad you enjoyed Shane's episode! I'll check out that link you sent.
Dweezil, it's so cool that you and Shane are friends. I do recall the contest and Shane's submission. Thank you so much for including him here! You two need to collaborate on an album!
Hey Tim,
Yes we do need to collaborate. He did play on stage with me a few times. You can hear hime here. https://www.dweezilzappa.com/songs/1964851-threesome-then-some-pound-for-a-brown
Really interesting article dropped today. Mike Post on a recent podcast said it was Ed playing all the drums on VHIII. Considering I have heard it's Ed playing all the bass as well... Just interesting...
https://www.vhnd.com/2024/04/10/mike-post-van-halen-iii-was-to-be-an-album-eddies-way/?fbclid=IwAR3PDY_CWDWrlrA-LlmbX4y2AXsLDJ1KaONANbz1gFfFYUPXznP1jwL1_4k
Thanks for posting this. That is interesting! Ed played drums on the VH III album?! I thought Al got sober after the 5150 tour and stayed that way. It'll be interesting to see if Al mentions all this in his book.
From NAMM 1987 with permission from Dan Kozlow who took these pictures…
Great pics!
Amazing pics!
Any word on the Kemper profiles yet?
I've been waiting to get a Kemper in house to do the Profiles. I don't have one yet. I also don't have the Line 6 products yet either.
I’ve just completed my “On Fire” transcription and I thought I would share it here with any of you guitar players that are interested. As I always do with my transcriptions, I used all available footage and the raw mic track helped a great deal.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kLobmynnf1wGMePMddkjnLrjyBDTPiVX/view?usp=drivesdk
Hey hey! Which episode is the reverse engineering the brown sound?
We are still waiting for it.
I always wished final episode would be wolfgang.
Dweezil, I know you mentioned that we are coming to the "end" of this great series of podcasts in the one you did recently. (I second the "Push Comes To Shove" deep-dive, BTW) But I was wondering if you thought about Ben Eller as a guest? His deep-dive into the Hang Em High riff and what makes it, in his words, impossible is a great watch. And while I know you have had some HUGE guitarists on as guests, I think Ben's love/respect of EVH would make him a great guest. Anyway, love this series, and I don't care HOW LONG it takes for these to come out, each one is golden.
Ben is great…though I have to take exception with his “Hang ‘Em High” tutorial. He makes it way harder than it has to be and he makes something that is actually easy into something confusing.
The pattern that Ed uses is as follows. There is no video evidence of him playing it in any way other than this. My friend Doug Steele also made a video that gave that “absurd stretch” placing the riff on adjacent strings as an option…and while he said that was an OPTION it must be made clear that Eddie never played it that way.
This should make that riff crystal clear. Be sure to use the left hand fingers that I have notated here because these are the fingers that Ed used in all available footage and that goes for the simple picking directions that I have included.
Allen I love all your posts/content, especially the fact that you pore over live vids as well to document the actual way Ed played. I appreciate that the actual riff is "easier" than what Ben was trying to do, what I thought was so cool about the vid was the last part where he realized the riff is swung instead of straight 16th notes. It explains the "galloping" of the low notes that I always heard in the isolated riff parts of the song.
Gotcha…yes, but I will say that nearly everything Eddie played was in his own timing. So one could make a very good case that everything he did was in swing time!
Hi everyone! Most or many of you may already be aware of this, but I thought I’d post it here for those that might have missed it…
My pal Greg Renoff did a historic interview with Dweezil’s pal and quantum level engineer Donn Landee a while back for ‘Tape-Op Magazine’. I can’t stress enough how important this is. To have Donn interviewed to this depth was a dream I thought unattainable, but Greg made it happen finally! His superb research, dedication and tireless interest in Van Halen and the music that Ted and Donn were an integral part of over their careers is served so well in this interview and it is a must read. Part One came out a while back and Part Two just dropped yesterday.
Behold!
https://tapeop.com/interviews/157/donn-landee/
https://tapeop.com/interviews/159/donn-landee/
Thanks so much for posting these links to the Donn Landee interviews, have always wanted to get some his perspective on "how it all went down."
Hi Dweezil, thank you for your incredible dedication to this podcast! It’s been a real pleasure to listen and learn!
I was wondering if you’d be willing to do a “Challenger Deep” dive into the structure and nuances of arguably one VH’s deepest tracks: ‘Push Comes to Shove’. You’ve mentioned that it contains your favorite EVH guitar solo…and I assume it’s one of your overall favorite VH songs (certainly your fave VH album!)
I can’t think of anyone who does a better job than you of articulating not only technical nuances of a piece of music but also emotional nuances, aka the “Fuck Yeah” factor!
It’d be great to hear you pick apart everything from the background (disco-reggae vibe), the intro, overall song structure, the solo, the outro, and any known info on how it was recorded. Perhaps do this as part of another listening party?
A couple of the many things I love about the song are: 1) Dave’s scream during the outro which seems to slowly take up all the oxygen in the room (in the best possible way). 2) Mike’s bass fill right before Dave’s scream. It sets up the scream perfectly. And it reminds me of his bass fill in ‘Romeo Delight’ right after Ed’s tapped harmonic intro.
Anyway, keep up the fantastic work and thanks again!
Paul
Hi Paul,
Glad you're enjoying the podcast. I like your idea. I just need 17 more hours in each day in order to get stuff done. I'll keep it in mind! Best, DZ
Great Episode!
Here is a fantasy.
David, Alex, and Michael should play a couple of tunes with Jacob. Do this on this SAMMY 2024 tour. When they come to California.
It would be cool to have Wolf play as well with two guitars and singing backups so Dave doesn't have to stretch. You would have 4 singers. Dave, Jacob, Michael, and Wolf.
The other guitar players that I see doing this could be Dweezil, Nuno, Gilbert. Id have each do a song with the above band.
Thoughts?
Regards,
Jimmy
As soon as I heard the Runnin With the Dweezil at the end of the first episode I had hopes Jacob would also be a guest... I knew it was him. I even mentioned it to Dweezil in private. I was introduced to Jacob's playing leaving an arts festival with his awesome cover of On Fire... A stuffy lady on the bus told me to turn it down. I was so in the moment I looked her in the eye and said, no... My wife pretended to be mad at me until later when she laughed at me like we were kids again. Great episode! I have been waiting literally years for this!